Here’s the thing. I work with a lot of men. During phone calls, I speak with men. For meetings, I sit down with men. At networking events, more men walk in the door than women. In particular, at entrepreneurial events there are lots and lots of men, and just one or two women.
And guess what? I could care less.
Sort of. Because not immediately, but always eventually I notice there are fewer women than men in my life. And then, inevitably, I feel that it’s necessary to say something like, “Where are my women at?” I don’t know why such words fly out of my mouth because I feel comfortable around these men. They’re good guys. But there’s this undercurrent that just doesn’t feel right.
Monica O’Brien calls this casual sexism, and basically tells us to shut up about it, play by the rules and move on. Which is good advice. It’s the path that’s gotten me where I am today.
Indeed, this month’s issue of Portfolio observes that nobody wants to talk about it because most people think there’s nothing to discuss.
Generation Y women in particular are growing up believing they don’t have to worry about sexism. In college I certainly didn’t feel there were inequalities.
It was only a few months after graduation that I learned otherwise. Somehow I had finagled my way onto the Board of a local nonprofit, and the rest of the Board was comprised of men. Older men who didn’t listen to me. There was one woman who joined our meetings by teleconference; she was pregnant and bed-ridden. And those meetings always made me a little indignant.
Like when I read advice that tells me I have to get married and have babies before I’m thirty. I guess it’s smart advice, but it doesn’t resonate with me. I don’t feel that my entire life needs to be managed around having a baby, because I don’t feel that my sole purpose in life is to have a baby.
But it seems that because women are different, being built to have babies and all, that our success isn’t the same as the success of men.
For example, when one of the top alpha females in my area personally called me last week to congratulate me on a recent success, I was ecstatic. I told Hercules all about it, and he said to me, “That’s great. But you know, she’s really not all that smart.”
And I took what he fed me, because I respect Hercules and I like him a lot. But then, do you know what I did after that? Each time I told the story, I added that clause to the end. That this wonderful, well-respected woman who personally called me might not be that smart in reality. What?!
That belittles her success and it belittles mine. It’s casual sexism at its best.
This is what Gen Y women are dealing with. And it may be entirely more dangerous than outright discrimination since it seeps quietly into our minds and then out of our mouths. That sucks.
Because while we may not be marching for our rights any longer, we’re still debating whether pantsuits are unfeminine and men like Jun Loayza now think it’s charming to ask if we were “a little crazy as an undergrad.”
We’re not out of the woods yet.
Gen Y women will have to breed an entirely different form of feminism to deal with this. I don’t have the answer here, because I often feel conflicted. I genuinely enjoy being a woman. In my view, I want to wear the dresses and have the power. Only time will tell if I can have it all.
46 replies on “Gen Y women – out of the workplace woods?”
Rebecca, I’m glad you wrote this. It’s how I feel working with all men too. I kind of like it but also have to question why no other women are out there rocking it. It’s good to hear from another woman who is.
My only question is do we really play by the rules still? I do and I don’t, depending on the situation. I think it’s one thing to completely ignore gender issues, and another to accept that they are there and act accordingly to get respect. And yes, as women we still have to earn it a little more than it seems men do.
The third option is to overdo it and say men and women should be treated exactly the same at the workplace. To me, this is like saying companies should recruit gen Y and boomers the same way too.
I’m interested to hear what your audience has to say about this.
“‘That’s great. But you know, she’s really not all that smart.’
…
That belittles her success and it belittles mine. It’s casual sexism at its best.”
It sounds like you’re assuming this comment was made solely because she’s a woman. Are you sure he wouldn’t have made the same comment if a male was “not all that smart”?
I like how Monica said she plays by the rules depending on the situation; that sounds more like a fair and honest statement. Women know very well that they have an edge in certain situations and that’s fine.
People seem to confuse equality with being identical. Men and women are not the same.
I’d like to believe that our generation is making progress in this department. Look at the [typical] boomers where the split among men and women in leadership roles is like 75/25, Xers might be closer to 60/40, it seems like our generation is the one that might hit the near 50/50 mark.
Gen Y women will have to breed an entirely different form of feminism to deal with this.
I couldn’t agree more. Feminism where we’re burning bras and man-hating is outdated, but so is thinking we’re meant for donning aprons and popping out babies for a living. I struggle with this. When my father died, I had a strong urge to procreate immediately. This is a normal psychological reaction, to give the displaced emotions you had for one person to a new one.
Upon further examination I realized this was more a reaction than a calling.
I hope to have children, but as I explore other more appropriate ways to grieve and the things I really think I’m meant to do, a child is appearing not to be the committment for me to take on right now…
@ Monica – I agree with you wholeheartedly, I think. I play by the rules when I need to and push it when I don’t. But I think a lot of us aren’t aware that there are gender issues, and I also don’t think we have to play by the rules as much as we do.
@ Ian – Considering Hercules is one of my close friends, yes. I don’t think it was meant maliciously, it was just an example of the “casual sexism.”
Women do have edges in certain situations, but even acknowledging that, our edge is nowhere near the edge that men have.
Certainly, we’re making progress. Past generations have done a lot for us. But we’re at a spot now where I believe it can be dangerous since the sexism is just in our culture and not something obvious to fight against.
@ Milena – I’m with you. A big part of me wants to have children and just forget about my career, but a huge part of me doesn’t even think about children. I assume this is just part of being young and growing up and later my biological clock will start ticking, but I find it annoying that a woman’s career path is always mentioned with a baby. At the end of the day, I guess it’s sound advice since it’s realistic, but I think the way it’s framed often isn’t fair.
I think this quote states it quite nicely:
“When a man gets up to speak, people listen then look. When women get up, people look; then if they like what they see, they listen.” -Pauline Frederick
Just because Hercules tried to bring you down to his level shouldn’t mean you accept it. His judgments are not yours. Be true to yourself. Make your own judgments and don’t bend your judgments to match his. Whoever said Hercules was that smart in reality?
The hard thing with “casual sexism” is that I feel like we (women) are brought up with it. It’s subtle yet still dangerous and I find myself struggling against my own preconceived notions about men and women all the time.
I agree that we’re going to have to address feminism in an entirely different way to combat this. We got ourselves out of the kitchen and into the workplace and now we’re struggling to be heard there as equals.
It will be a good day when more people realize that different can be valuable in the workplace. Yes, women are different and bring different perspectives to nearly everything. When will people (men and women) start genuinely using this to their advantage?!
Great post.
Per Hercules’ comment, I’m not sure what being THAT smart has to do with recognizing success. It DOES seem like the comment goes out of its way to belittle the success of two women (whether out of sexism or not) because it brings up something that is largely irrelevant to the situation. Unless your success was of a truly esoteric nature, I don’t see what the alpha female’s native intelligence warrants any mention. (With that said, I think even the simplest among us can recognize that Einstein did some pretty amazing things in his lifetime.)
I think this goes straight to the point. Casual sexism can occur because we can always frame situations in whatever way we see fit. In doing so, we can inject our own biases to rationalize our behavior, whether reasonable or not.
Yes, women do have advantages in certain situations, but does experience really tell us that these advantages are what lead to the highest leadership positions? Per Ian’s comment, is Gen X old enough to examine which sex in this generation will populate the highest leadership positions? If not, can we make reasonable estimates about what will happen with Gen Y? I think we have some time before we can make any accurate assessments. In the meantime we must pay attention to our natural human tendency to employ flawed inductive logic, making conclusions about the general from experience of the specific.
I think women are well-positioned to have successful careers in just about any field right now. To a great extent, if you can perform well, you will always be in high demand. But women will still be left out of the highest positions within certain organizations that are currently run by men. Rebecca’s experience sitting on that board is probably not that uncommon.
Before I respond, I should disclose the fact that I’m a male… and Gen X (not Gen Y). So that kind of puts me on the other side of this discussion, since I’m not often in receivership of sexism or any other ism’s for that matter. Or maybe I am, and I just don’t notice it or classify it as such.
And yet, a part of me strongly wants to identify with what you’re going though. Perhaps because I have been victim to other forms of exclusion, and these moments have stuck with me and even shaped me into the person I am now.
This discussion typically begins with the statistic of number of men vs. women in the workplace.
First of all, I dislike that statistic. I’m not denying it, or even calling its implied findings into question. I simply want to carry the conversation past the numbers and direct it towards a possible explanation/solution. Knowing that there are more men in positions of power is a good start, but finding out why interests me more. That’s why I enjoy reading this blog, because you take the time to go beyond just the initial statistic and direct the discussion towards discovering some insight.
This week the Today Show highlighted a book (missed the author and book name) in which the author describes more men in the workplace as a possibly being driven by women themselves. She uses the book to point out that women have been in the workforce for 50 years now, and their desire to nurture has them focusing on careers that allow them to do so. In those types of careers (teaching, nursing, customer care), women outnumber men consistently.
I can partially agree with that, but I also think that sexism plays a role in that statistic. In those cases the statistic might be more representative of a career path of least resistance for women, then a purely biologically inspired outcome.
As a man, I can see a biological/situational training that has me predisposed to think and possibly act in sexist ways.
For example, let me admit to a situation where I was the person responsible for the casual sexism… One time a good friend of mine told me he was going to become a nurse, the first thing I thought of was, “why not a doctor?” I actually restrained myself from saying what I initially thought. I saw the importance and correctness of the proceeding thought, which was “congratulations on deciding what you wanted to do, I know you were struggling with choosing a profession…” and communicated that instead.
I know if my friend was female, I would not have had my first thought at all. I admit this, in hopes that your readers won’t tear me apart for being sexist, albeit one who knows how to hold his tongue. Rather, I think the thought I had is pretty common place for a man and probably a contributor to sexism as a whole. But it also offers me a clue to the the solution, which I’ll try to share.
First of all, I don’t think I was raised incorrectly. My parents taught me better than that. And I know I reject the “typical” male locker room conversation, so my reasoning for thinking sexist remains unknown and therefore involuntary to me.
I’m reminded of this great scene in the movie Malcolm X. A white girl finds an audience with Malcolm and asks him “as a white person, what can I do to help your cause?” Malcolm responds, “Nothing.”
The meaning behind the scene is quite profound and poignant. It was a way of examining the idea that despite all of the great things Malcolm X was able to do for the cause of his race, he (at least as illustrated in that moment) did very little to directly solve racism.
You demonstrated, through your response to Hercules’ statement, that you can identify casual sexism and simultaneously maintain some perspective. You didn’t take the extreme response of casting aside the friendship or the entirety of the person because of his misstep.
The problem of sexism isn’t a simplistic one, since ALL of the men in ALL of those professions can’t simply be labeled as sexist. Doing so implies that the solution to sexism can only be found with a universal male biological rewiring and attitude change. Unlikely.
Such extreme approaches, while seemingly helpful for women, would do little to help remove sexism from the workplace. After all the goal isn’t to take over the workplace, but rather work side-by-side in an equal way with your male counterparts.
I see two main components in overcoming ism’s. First is an extreme declaration of opposition. The Malcolm X approach, if you will. It sheds light on the cause, and points the population in the general direction of a solution by providing confidence to those otherwise repressed through opposition.
The second is a bit more subtle yet continual. It would be best described as the Martin Luther King Jr approach. Tolerance and peaceful protest. It is fostered from the understanding that by excluding the support of person simply because he/she looks like the opposition is a reflection of the very thing you’re trying to dispel.
Like most people, I don’t consider myself a bad person and I generally try to contribute and support the people in my life in positive ways. So I’m left to question the meaning of my own intent. I’m not alone. I know and trust there are more men that think like I do and so I remain hopefully optimistic.
This is so accurate and so timely. I work in a an organization that has been actively working over the last several decades for gender parity, but it is still very much male-dominated. In this organization, it takes 25 years to build an exective, so women that joined the late seventies and early eighties are now being promoted to senior leadership positions. While I am very proud to be assoiated with this organization, I see and instances of casual sexism regularly.
Coincidentally, today my organization hosted a panel discussion on leadership, and all five panel members were men. While I don’t deny these are accomplished invididuals that deserve to be in these positions, it is discouraging to see an entire panel of males discussing leadership and the future of this organization.
I often go into meetings to discover that I am the only female. This used to intimidated me, but lately I have been trying to use it as an opportunity to demonstrate that I can and do contribute meaningfully, despite my gender and appearance – that these are not relevant to my performance.
On this same note, I think it is important to draw attention to the issue that Linda’s quote highlights – female appearance.
At the risk of sounding vain, I am in my 20s, blonde and not ugly. I’ve been asked out multiple times at work and recieve both flattering and frustrating comments about my looks. My challenge is having many of these men (notably the ones that make the crude comments, not the ones that ask me out) take me seriously. I don’t come to work to serve as eye candy, and I hate that there are people that view me as that. That is casual sexism at its best. Guys my age never deal with these attitudes at work. It is where both my challenge and opportunity to change perceptions lies.
Rebecca,
You can have it all! It IS possible to wear that dress and be in power. I have the privilege of knowing quite a few women who are among the most powerful and influential people in my region (and also happen to care about shoes). It’s a great place to be, and I, too, aspire to it.
That said, you’re absolutely right. There is kind of a silent fight going on out there. If you’re not quick or observant, you might not notice it. But, it’s definitely there.
There is work to be done.
Thanks for getting the conversation started.
While I can appreciate most of the comments made, I realize I’m asking for trouble, but: allow me to continue to play the opposing side. I enjoy debates!
I didn’t say anything about malicious intent. Would he have made the same comment had this been a male? IF yes, then I don’t see how this is “casual sexism” at all…
“our edge is nowhere near the edge that men have”
Can you please list a few edges men have that are “nowhere near” those of women? I’m not trying to be antagonistic, I’m actually curious…maybe I’ve just worked in very progressive organizations??
As to the Pauline Frederick quote, I liked it, but let’s put that in perspective: she lived from 1883-1938…does that make the quote untrue? Absolutely not, but it does help put it in perspective. There’s no doubt you’re very bright, but maybe you needed a more realistic perspective [in this particular case]?
When Penelope Trunk proclaimed that pay gap was not an issue and Teresa Esser said that she got used to it and became desensitized to gender imbalance in entrepreneurship and venture capital representations, I was at a loss for words. Does Gen-Y really think little of gender inequity? Am I fighting for an idealogical relic, being brought up more like the tail end of Gen-X than the beginning of Gen-Y?
After reading your blog, I found the voice again, which has always been in plain sight if only I knew what I was looking for. So, career sexism isn’t about money. It’s about representation and social treatment. In other words, it’s like racism. We must fight sexism as though we are fighting racism: Call out sexism by playing dumb, but be sure to make lots of fuss while playing dumb.
Interesting post, Rebecca. It reminds me of a story on NPR yesterday with the author of The 10 Year Nap – well, the part about motherhood and career anyway. Since I’m getting married soon, all this has been on my mind a lot, and I have to admit, it’s a difficult thing to face. The possibility of a life-changing, career-altering experience like that.
I think the casual sexism idea is a pretty good one. I’d say it’s a pretty good catch-all. Like how in many places, there’s also casual racism and casual religious discrimination. I think it’s part of how far removed we are from radical social movements in our generation.
I don’t know exactly how I feel about approaching it though. The question is, does dealing with it head-on increase or decrease the impact and instances it happens? I don’t know. I’m sort of with you on that.
As I’ve told you before, women have to wear skirt suits in my workplace, with nylons, and preferably heels, to boot. And we’re told it’s because that’s the most professional look. And hey, we work for a really great company with great benefits and wonderful people, so even if that is casual sexism, it’s not illegal, so the best thing seems to be just to ignore it, like Monica advocates. And actually, we seem to employ a lot more women than many other big companies I’ve worked for. So it’s a complicated thing. But I’ve taken the deal with it approach there, and so far my career’s going great.
Overall, it’s a very tricky issue indeed.
It’s frustrating to not be able to find women who are out there fighting the same fights you are, overcoming the same obstacles you’re against, etc.
I think what frustrates me is that I feel the boys-club mentality still exists. Granted, I live in south Texas, but even the most open-minded men I know still all meet with each other, leaving me peeking into the huddle from the outside.
My frustration reached it’s boiling point when the guy I’m seeing started meeting with his entrepreneurially-minded friends (all guys) weekly as a group. That’s it, I thought. I need to find some women like me. I started a young women’s entrepreneurship group and grabbed two ex-coworkers with whom I had discussed entrepreneurship and we’ve been meeting weekly since. I’m proud to say Launch Pad (as we’ve dubbed it) seems a little more productive and organized than the guys.
Not that we’re competing, of course.
If I may suggest – anyone interested in a new breed of feminism needs to read the author Camille Paglia, with whom I’ve recently fallen in love.
She’s an Obama supporter (though I’m not), has a wicked vocabularly and not only clever but profound insights into feminism, culture, and politics.
I don’t agree with everything she says, but she makes damn good points, and I can understand where she’s coming from so I respect her. Or maybe I’m afraid of her.
Either way – she’s a cool woman I’d love to be like…
Pauline Frederick Born: 13-Feb-1906 Birthplace: Galitzin, PA Died: 9-May-1990
I think Ian has the wrong Pauline Frederick–there appear to be several.
I do deem her quote to be germaine today though I am not able to find a date for the quote.
“Gen Y women will have to breed an entirely different form of feminism to deal with this.”
YES YES YES!!! I think we’re still figuring out how to deal with gender stuff at work. And we all have initial reactions based on gender biases. My boss is a gentleman, and was shocked when someone was cursing in front of me. And it was so nice of him to apologize for what he saw as a problem, but I also was thinking that I curse like a sailor and he can’t see me as fragile or different from the men.
In chatting at work, there are always the moments when no one knows what is ok in front of the ‘girls.’ I’m in an office of around 20 men and then the three women. All three of us women are in our first two years of being attorneys. No idea where the other women are – probably kid friendly more private legal practice decisions.
I also have had offhand comments that could crush me – one involving someone joking about whether I was having an affair with a male mentor of mine. I didn’t have hurt feelings – I was terrified for my career reputation. The guy who said it was casually making a joke, but I dealt with it and had to nip any such joke in the bud… and for a few weeks wasn’t around the guys of the office so no one who had heard would overanalyze.
These casual issues are really hard to deal with…
I also agree with sally – I am 27 and blonde and know that that has cost me some respect. It isn’t just age, but the ‘girl’ factor. I’m just lucky it isn’t that prevalent in my office and the defense attorneys I work against (with?) only hurt themselves underestimating me.
Everytime I hear people say there’s nothing to discuss, I point at the way Hilary Clinton is treated by the press; maybe not EVERYday, but certainly at least every OTHER day.
Good topic. No easy answers but great to bring up the discussion.
Hi everyone – thanks for the great comments! I have been sick, so I apologize for not responding individually like I normally do. Here’s some brief thoughts –
@ Linda – true. It was just surprising to me how quickly I took things at face value.
@ Erika – Definitely. We were brought up with it so it’s difficult to identify. I agree that we need to use our differences to our advantages. I just get confused, I think like all women, which differences to play up and which to play down to be taken seriously.
@ TC – I think paying attention to your own biases is extremely important and the first step to moving forward anywhere. I personally believe that women have advantages that make them great leaders (not better or worse, but different than men), and it’s just a matter of time before we can be at a point where this is a widespread belief among the population.
@ Dan – It’s interesting that there are many reasons that more men than women could be in power, but I think it’s a fallacy to say that it’s because women don’t want to be. How can we know what we want or don’t want if we haven’t been able to try it??
I also think I was raised well, and it’s more the general media that is around us every day that is such a great influencer. Thanks for the great comment!
@ Sally – Thanks for sharing your personal experiences. It’s certainly difficult to be in a primarily male organization. I’ve struggled often with appearance as well, to the point where I wasn’t dressing as well as I could so that I would feel more comfortable on one end, and using it to an extreme advantage at the other. I think I’ve found a good balance, but it’s a sticky issue.
@ Angela – I believe I can have it all, and know many women who do, but when I have it all, I want to be respected just as much as men are. The onus right now is on women to walk the fine line so that this occurs, and is just plain hard to do. Thanks for the inspiration!
@ Ian – I love a good debate as well! : ) I think a big obvious edge is business. The majority of CEOs are men. I know very few female CEOs. This is based on media reports and my own personal experience. I’m not saying I’m not optimistic, but that we need to pay more attention. And I would argue that people who think there is no problem, which sounds like yourself, are the ones who need to open their eyes the most. Thanks for giving a differing perspective!
@ Gene – I’m with you. I think the fight is different, and we need to respond differently. We all feel it, just like you said. And awareness is the first step. Now it’s a matter of figuring out some action.
@ Tiffany – Yes, we’re far removed from the radical movements, but as you know, I often feel like maybe we need to be a little more radical to get things done. I wonder if it’s more dangerous to have it seep unconsciously into ourselves. I only vaguely remember that you have to wear skirt suits. And that kind of infuriates me to be honest. I think that crosses the line. But since I don’t work there, I’ll leave my opinion at that.
@ Holly – I often feel the boys club mentality exists as well. I don’t feel it often, but it’s pretty obvious when it’s there. The entrepreneurial groups you talk of are actually pretty common, but I had never thought about whether they were male or female dominated. I think they might be male, just because young women seem to not seek out such support. And when they do, maybe it’s better to have female support than male. I’m not sure. That’s a whole other can of worms.
@ Milena – Thanks for the suggestion. I remember you recommending Camille on your blog, so now I will have to go read her blog.
@ Linda – Excellent. I think we can learn a lot from history, so quotes such as these are very important.
@ megs – You bring up a great point about women being more like men than some may like to admit – love that. The reputation thing is also huge. I deal with that as well, and I often feel under more scrutiny than if I were male. I’m glad to hear you will not be underestimated!
@ R Deezy – Exactly. And we have to talk about things, even if we disagree, in order for life to move forward. Thanks!
The timing for you article couldn’t have been anymore precise. It’s my stance that as women in this business decade we need to unite a strong workforce. Although there may be less women participating in Fortune 500 companies, we cannot neglect the powerbase of women indulging in small businesses and online markets, who make a large contribution to our economy. I love your post, because I feel that you can identify with the imperative need to support and encourage other women and peers in business.I actually work with Microsoft, and right now I’m really excited to spread the word about the “Vision to Venture” tour they’re having between April and May, which will consist of five live events. Susan Solovic, the best-selling author and CEO of SBTV.com, will be giving the keynote speech-“Girls Guide to Building a Million Dollar Business”-geared toward women entrepreneurs and savvy business ladies. You can see more and register at http://smallbusiness.officelive.com/v2v/ so let me know what you think! And if you have any questions, I’d be more than happy to answer them!
Linda – Unfortunately, I couldn’t find a date for the quote either, but Google around and depending on where you look, people have attribute the quote to both the actress and the reporter. Of course, it sounds better coming from a journalist! ;)
Pauline Frederick (August 12, 1883, Boston – September 19, 1938, Beverly Hills, California)
Someone has the wrong one, but for arguments sake, let’s say you’re right. Although you can learn a lot from history, perspective and circumstances are very important. She would have been in her twenties in the early 19th century.
Rebecca – “Business” is not an edge. I asked for examples of where men’s edge is “nowhere near” that of women. You haven’t provided one. Anyone else is welcome to do so as well…
Let’s look at the argument anyway: if I look at today’s CEOs, how old are most of them? Note my initial point: The boomer generation (most of the CEOs today) is very male-heavy at the top. You can already (esp. in the last 5 years) clearly see how more and more women are becoming CEOs. Times are changing, but feel free to keep looking for sexism.
I never said there is no problem. I acknowledge there’s still some work to do, but, similarly to racism, there are more serious situations of discrimination. If you look hard enough you can take any statement to be sexist or racist. I would argue that people who try and find “casual sexism” when it might not be there, which sounds like yourself, are the ones who might have a harder time in today’s world.
Again, not trying to be difficult, but I’m still curious to know what clear edge you believe men have. I think I might need my own post on this…
@ Tanya – Thanks for the comment. I agree women are making big strides in lots of areas. I’ll check out the conference and appreciate you sharing it with everyone.
@ Ian – It’s obvious that younger men have an “edge” or advantage because the current role models are mostly men. It’s easier for men to break into business, do well in business and rise to the top for that reason. If that’s not an obvious in-your-face edge I’m not sure what kind of example you need. Perhaps at this point, however, we’re talking about different things.
Times are changing quickly. I’m really proud of where women are today, and I am extremely optimistic about where we’re going. You can read some of my past posts on women to see this.
That doesn’t mean that sexism doesn’t exist. It’s great that you don’t believe that there is no problem. I think we’re essentially on the same page. I don’t try and find casual sexism, it finds me, and sometimes outright blatant sexism punches me in the face, but I chose not to write about that because I’m hoping the isolated incidents I’ve encountered are just that – isolated.
Everyone has a hard time in the world. Certainly, I’ve had my fair share of bad things happen, but they’ve only made me stronger. I believe that overcoming adversity makes you a better person, not that it’s something to wallow in or complain about. That’s why it’s important to talk about things. Otherwise, I wouldn’t be in the position that I am in, and I wouldn’t have the success that I do. So I appreciate the discussion whether you agree with me or not.
I don’t know if things are more evolved here in the UK, but in the consultancy contracts that I’ve stepped into over the last 18 months, all of them have been reporting into senior female managers who are doing the job on a level playing field.
These are women in their late 20’s and into their 30’s, who are seen as capable, influential and a great asset. Which is exactly what they are. They’re doing a bloody good job, and everyone knows it.
One additional point. As a coach I’m always hesitant to validate people too soon. If a client tells me that her partner doesn’t value her I’ll ask her if she values herself. If a client asks me why she’s still single I’ll her why she’s clinging on to being single. And if a client tells me that she’s experiencing casual sexism at work I’ll ask her what sexist attitudes she holds.
This isn’t just to be controversial, but for the simple reason that people add their own ‘stuff’ into whatever they observe. The only meaning that things have is the meaning that we attach to them; meaning is the way we represent the external world to ourselves in a way that makes sense to us – and that means it’s entirely subjective.
That also means there’s a degree of responsibity here – the meanings that you give to things shapes your experience and can either add to or take away from yoursense of self. That’s why it’s important to challenge yourself to understand what it’s based on.
I’m not saying that this issue doesn’t exist, or that you should ignore it when it happens, far from it. I’m just saying that care needs to be taken in giving things meaning without understanding your own interpretation of what you perceive to be true.
Wow, getting a bit existential there…
This post impacted me and I’ve continued to mull it over the last few days.
I was talking about the issue of feminism with my husband who offered that perhaps what I was really talking about was individualism. He pointed out that two women can have completely different value systems, for example a religious Muslim woman versus an atheist liberal arts professor. They are both female, but how could feminism possibly apply to both of them when their value systems are totally different?
He argued, “Wouldn’t the term individualist cover female issues as readily as it would cover Muslim issues, or Hispanic issues? Aren’t we talking about equality across the board and how to approach it?”
It’s a good point. Even though we may be talking to issues unique to many women, I think we have to realize that classifying them as “feminist” is a misnomer. We could be excluding whole classes of women who make choices opposite to what a feminist ideology might be…so maybe it’s not a new breed of feminism, but a full embracing of humanism, or individualism?
Yeah…so…um. That’s all I got.
@ Steve – First, my sister lives in England and considering she wrote me an email right after I posted this post agreeing with everything, I would say that it’s not more evolved. You probably just have that perception. I agree that it’s important to figure out where things are coming from, and what meaning you attach to things, and I do this all the time. But as you say, that doesn’t mean the issue doesn’t exist, and really, we need to pay attention to ourself, but also hold others responsible.
@ Milena – Wow. Really interesting. I’m going to have to think on this a little longer in order to respond…because I keep trying and what I want to say isn’t coming out right.. ; )
“It’s easier for men to break into business, do well in business and rise to the top for that reason.”
We’re both [somewhat] talking about different shades of grey. I still don’t agree with you, but I guess that’s where that ends. I believe Steve and I are saying the same thing. Not that sexism doesn’t exist, but you have to be careful where you choose to find it.
Milena has a good point as well. We’re talking about equality. Not just feminism or sexism. I mentioned the parallel to racism in my previous comment. If you look for it, you can choose to perceive discrimination anywhere…
My advice: If it’s blatant discrimination (sexism/racism/ageism/whatever), you absolutely have to do something about it. If it’s not blatant, take responsibility for your feelings and figure out why you feel the need to think that way…
That’s it for me. I suppose we’ll have to agree to disagree! Thanks for the debate! ;)
Maybe I should move over here – this is where the conversation is happening!
Be yourself, Rebecca, become more of who you want to be, and you’ll be just fine.
[…] was triggered by Monica’s post, which, in her defense, sounded like a more balanced version of Rebecca’s post. Monica also seems to understand that both men and women can use gender as an edge. Funny how when […]
oh I so hear you sister!
[…] triggered by Monica’s post, which, in her defense, sounded like a more balanced version of Rebecca’s post. Monica also seems to understand that both men and women can use gender as an edge. Funny how when […]
[…] whose opinion out of love I choose to weigh with equal or more weight than my own. I’m a forward-thinking gal. One who’s got quite a bit of social capital, personal branding, and presence revolving […]
[…] whose opinion out of love I choose to weigh with equal or more weight than my own. I’m a forward-thinking gal. One who’s got quite a bit of social capital, personal branding, and presence revolving […]
[…] week Rebecca of Modite said that Gen Y women will have to “breed a new form of feminism” as a way to combat the casual sexism that Monica recently wrote about on Twenty […]
[…] fiancé, whose opinion out of love I choose to weigh with equal or more weight than my own. I’m a forward-thinking gal. One who’s got quite a bit of social capital, personal branding, and presence revolving around […]
Fantastic post, I really feel that you have hit the true spirit of the Gen-Y woman on the head. I would like to offer one bit of advice to you and that is to be careful because many women develop a sort of edge or hardness when being the minority in the workplace. I understand exactly where you are coming from when you mention not being listened to because you are young and a women. I learned the importance of being excepted into the ‘good old boys’ club when I was in high school and the only girl in a majority of my classes (I took the auto and tech ones). The first day at the first shop I worked at I was greeted with stories of the previous two women whom had been employed there, each for under a year. There had been two women during the 20 year span of the company. Having no strong women to look up to I mimicked the men who I worked under and completely lost my feminine identity, this wasn’t hard working a shop anyway. I developed a disliking for most women who were in non gender typical fields because a majority of them whom I encountered were there because they wanted to be the girl who worked with the guys or they wanted to get with the guys, not because they enjoyed or cared about the work. I developed an edge of sorts which has been carried throughout my other jobs and my course work. In college I was the only girl in all of my major specific courses. I infiltrated the good old boys club, hence my non feminine nick name.
When I started my current career I went in assuming that everyone would attempt to discredit my work because I am far younger then them and I am a women. I felt as though I had to go above and beyond what would be expected from any middle aged man doing the same job. I was lucky enough to meet many women who had paid their dues and paved the way (I like to think) and now have people with whom I can discuss my current issues at work. They drilled into my head the importance of not showing a lot of emotion and for sure never crying, taking criticism with a gratitude and not letting them deter me from my current career path which I feel very passionate about.
While this feeling of being constantly watched really pushed me to excel it also put a chip on my shoulder, where if I was criticized I would assume it was because I was young or female even though that isn’t the case. I have seen many women fail because of this edge, which many women don’t realize they have.
My one piece of advice for you is to beware of this edge, it will develop without you realizing it and it will hinder you without you realizing it.
Wow! I’m not the only one who feels this way?
“Being normal,” Hercules replied, “gets you a middle-class life in the suburbs. It’s fifth place, and you know you want to be in first.” All successful people then are understandably eccentric. They take risks that normal people wouldn’t.
I’m mildly insulted by Hercules’ premise. In fact, I want to be middle class, live in the suburbs, have a successful marriage, successful career, and not lose my mind doing it. To me, that is still “first place” if we’re labeling.
Hercules’ statement suggests an objective version of success in one’s life, career, or leadership style.
I think success is whatever you define it as. I end up quoting a good friend all the time, he is following a path to becoming a Catholic priest, and I’m certain he is going to change many lives. He said, “How narrowly you define your success is how widely you define your failure.” The definition of success is ever-changing and we should allow that kind of flexibility. Stepping up and stepping down is part of the process, it’s not settling.
Furthermore, I think any fool can drive themselves to eccentricity, if they work hard enough and sacrifice enough. Far from being successful, in my eyes, this is a familiar model that I think is precisely why people want “normalcy” and balance. And if that is a middle class existence in the suburbs, it’s not a bad thing.
This article shows some serious flaws about society. I am a firm believer that women should be at home raising children and passing on their wisdom to the next generation. It is very much in the nature of women to be caring and want to nurture others. Those are aspects that are needed to raise children. This article, and the post’s afterwards seem to degrade the proffession of a homemaker.
Being a homemaker is the most challenging proffesion out there in the world. You have to master many skills that people in the workplace will pay top dollar for. I heard a estimated figure that a homemaker would make over half a million dollars a year for all the skills that they have mastered. However it seems that the author and the women that posted after seem to just overlook the homemaker as a outdated proffession. Ask your grandmother how hard it is.
The introduction of the working woman as the norm in society has caused a lot of problems. First it makes the richer become richer and the poor to be more poorer. When dual income familys became prevelent in the 80’s manufacurers started to adjust their prices so they can get more of that money. This causes a hording of money in certain sectors of society. Here is a example, back in the 60’s you could buy a nice home for under $10,000 a year, now the prices are much higher than that. The average house in LA will be close to $750,000. You can’t tell me that the huge increase in price is soley due to inflation. The price for the average ware is much greater than inflation increases as well. Nowadays it is REQUIRED to have 2 incomes to support a VERY basic lifestyle. Most people don’t live that lifestyle because they overspend money they don’t have, thus the credit crunch we are all feeling. People are forced to spend money that they don’t have to live in the same lifestyle they did 15 years ago. They don’t realize that it takes a 3rd and a 4th income to have that same lifestyle. While this is a very simplistic breakdown of the “growth” of our economy, it does highlight a lot of the key points.
This also causes a new thought in women. It makes them think that they can do everything that men can do. Women seem to forget that they are women, and men are men. Men since the begining of time has been the one to defend and provide for the home. Now women are more bold about what they are doing, because they know that the income they provide is a necessity to keep the family unit going. So they are more apt to going out and doing things that are wreckless to relationships. Everyone thinks that men are the ones who are cheats and lie in relationship when in fact women are the one who cheat and lie in greater numbers in todays society.
I know it seems like I am blaming women for the problems we see in society and todays economy, but trust me I am not. I think men are much more at fault to allow this to happen in our society. Too many of todays men wants to go out and please women when in fact they should be acting like men and taking the reigns become the man of the household again. Todays man is too much of a pussy to do this.
[…] told a couple people about this craziness – my mother, Belle, Hercules. They all humored me while explaining in a good-natured way that I shouldn’t count on […]
[…] sniffled and agreed, maybe he was right. But I need women to be stronger role models and more outspoken – whatever path they choose. I don’t want to be afraid of motherhood. And I don’t want to be […]
[…] complexity that is marriage and motherhood. But these stories just don’t exist about being a woman in the workplace. We need to start telling those. […]
[…] First off, what it is. Casual Sexism is the unintentional sexism that results from assumptions about what people should be doing. Men should build things and women be in the kitchen… except the not so obvious stuff. Rebecca Thorman of Modite describes is as an undercurrent that just doesn’t feel right. […]
Kwang, go back to the cave from whence you came.
The goal of you’re “good friend” Hercules was to intentionally put you down. And he succeeded.
It was just a bonus for him that the person giving you the compliment was also a woman.
Ian: If it’s not blatant, take responsibility for your feelings and figure out why you feel the need to think that way…
lol, maybe Ian women feel this way because the sexism is still there…just not blatent. Also a very poor try to put this back on the women.
[…] of energy, even love at times. We have feelings and our sole purpose in life is not always to take care of everybody else. Sometimes we need to take care of […]