Generation Y doesn’t need a reference

Gen Y should burn bridges by deleting comments too, apparently.

Good clarification. I think a lot of career advice is situational. Everyone has different goals, passions and strengths. You have your viewpoint and some people, namely millennials, will benefit more from it than others. You know your audience!

I fail to understand how you can say that you got a lot of cool jobs through your connections and networking and then say that burning bridges and references don’t matter. A lot of industries, yes even the cool ones, have people moving from company to company within it. If you burn your bridges in one company or with one boss, you could very well find yourself face to face with some of the same people later on. They won’t care if you can do the job, they won’t want to work with you again.

@ Dan – Thanks so much for your input – this was a large point of the clarification – that different things work for different people. My hope is not the people agree with what I say, but they are challenged to think about their own views.

@ Zach – I deleted Ask A Manager’s comment again, because she insisted on using inappropriate language again.

@ HR Minion – I definitely don’t think you should burn bridges with relationships that are meaningful and valuable to you. And I appreciate the perspective in your comment – I think it makes a lot of sense.

Maybe instead of consistently just insisting that cool companies do not check references, how about citing more than just a couple (mostly personal) situations? I’ve talked to hundreds of HR practitioners and I haven’t found one that advocates not checking references. Many Fortune 500 companies (some of which are really cool places to work) insist on reference checks through a service. So what are those people going to do if they take your advice?

Yet you reiterated your point that “cool jobs” don’t require references in the text after your video.

I mean, it is confusing. It is contradictory. You said you stand by your views and that nobody has to agree with you yet you are conciliatory (at least to me) that it doesn’t work for others. If you said “‘Don’t burn bridges’ was bad career advice for me and here’s why,” this would have been a lot less confusing (and of course, about 60 less comments).

My .02 worth–Rebecca…you write a good blog and are good at engaging people. And the thing about giving advice is that…well…sometimes you’re going to be wrong.

I’m not GenY. But I do hire GenY people for my team. And the people on my team consider me…and my company… cool.

But you better believe that I check references. And your social profile–your FB page if I can, Linked In, your blog. I do Google folks to learn as much about them as I can without being creepy about it.

I’m not looking for a reason not to hire someone. I don’t consider pictures on the ‘net of someone getting hammered at a party to be a disqualifier for employment.

I’m looking for reasons TO hire someone. I want to know why I want them on my team…why I should invest my company’s money and my time into you.

So your profile on the web doesn’t disqualify you. But not having references WILL. I’m not looking for anything specific in a reference–I just want to know what people are going to say about you and see how that matches up with my impressions.

Do you need a reference from every single job you’ve ever had? No. But I’m going to call, and if find inconsistencies in your story from previous employers, I’m definitely going to think twice about hiring someone.

Best policy–just be honest. If you burn a bridge at a job, that’s your choice–I’ll take the circumstances into consideration cuz I’ve worked for difficult people too.

Still, the best policy is that ‘what goes around, comes around.’ Life is long and you’re bound to run into people again later. You don’t have to kiss anyone’s butt, but a general attitude of be respectful and taking the high road is always good advice.

Best wishes to you…

Hi Rebecca,

You look more comfortable doing videos now so good for you. The sunlight coming through the window behind you is a bit too bright and you’re being ‘washed’ out as a result. You might want to experiment and try to soften and diffuse your light source. Got to love it – nothing to do with the content of this video. :)

Mark

“Which explains why good hiring managers don’t rely on references. They are useless. Get your own network if you want good input. ”

What? Are you kidding me? Any responsible hiring manager will check references.

Absolutely a personal connection is a great way to get your foot in the door. In fact, my last 2 positions were created for me due to a personal reference. But, the job offer didn’t come until my references were checked!

Do what you want. If you want to burn bridges that’s fine. But it’s irresponsible to speak like you are an expert on hiring and recruiting. People may take your advice and in this economy, no one can afford to burn a bridge.

Maybe this is why so many companies fail in their first 2 years. They aren’t checking the references (and hence the credentials) of the people that they hire.

It all comes down to the situation. Penelope hit the nail on the head about networks and networking. (Most) jobs come from the people you know – in that case, references may not be so important. Now, if you’re job hunting, cold calling, sending out resumes – references are going to be important.

Obviously I don’t know everything that goes on behind the scenes, but it seems like smaller businesses focus on what they personally think about you, while larger companies, who may not have the time to get to know you (and may never really get to know you while your there) on an intimate level – rely heavily on your past references of character and job performance.

It’s different for each job. I think Rebecca makes a little bit TOO bold of a statement when she says ‘Don’t burn your bridges is BAD advice’ – you should leave every job with class and with maintaining a good reputation in mind, it’s never wise to throw up the bird and yell screw you on your last day at a job. I think a better way to say it is, don’t burn your bridges, but don’t focus too much on building the ones that won’t matter’.

Question: Are we debating the semantic difference between references (titles and dates worked) or recommendations (“I recommend hiring this person.”)?

While I agree with Penelope about hiring managers only checking to references (title/dates) – I always thought recommendations from managers carried the threat of lawsuit – so folks don’t even bother trying to get them.

If anything, if they do check refs – it’s just so to make sure you aren’t lying on your reference.

But if you have recommendation …it might not matter anyway…?

I’m not sure what all the huff is about. Okay, Rebecca says cutting ties with negative relationships is a good thing.

AAM believes you should treat people well b/c if you don’t it may come back to haunt you.

Oh…and cool companies don’t check references.

WTF? (please don’t delete my comment) I’m with MN Headhunter – what’s that mean anyway?
I’m beginning to feel like the geek who’s not asked to prom.

Yet, anyway, I was always under the impression that burning bridges was not just about how you behave with your boss or co-workers. It’s also about those deal breakers like quitting without notice. Leaving projects unfinished. Costing the company lots of money.

And while title of the post from the other day is broad (b/c for some reason we are STILL talking about it) – the advice is simply about moving on from bad professional relationships and not being loyal for loyalty’s sake.

Enough said.

@AAM – In my experience (I’m in HR), the only managers giving out substantive references at large corporations are either unaware of corporate policy barring them from doing so, or simply don’t care.

@ Raven – You’re exactly right about the difference between a reference and a recommendation. Corporations just don’t (or at least shouldn’t be) giving out recommendations.

Can we all agree that it would be alright for a Gen Y to distance themselves from a bad or useless professional reference? I may be wrong here, but to me Rebecca isn’t advocating giving notice and walking out in the span of 15 minutes leaving the workplace scrambling. I take it as well I’ve done what I need to do. I’m leaving on proper grounds (not making a scene and having worked my 2 weeks notice), but now that I’m out of the company I’m not going to work to maintain these references and contacts. I take her message less as “burning your bridges” and more as just letting them fall into disrepair, forgetting about them and moving on to newer better bridges that you’re happy to work on.

Just my take. Feel free to agree or disagree.

I’ve had people give references that turned out to be bogus anyway. References are not the end-all for hiring someone and shouldn’t be. I agree that networking is a great way to find a job and hire someone. When you have someone come forward and recommend someone for a job, they are putting their reputation on the line and that’s the best recommendation I’ve found. If someone would give you a poor recommendation, that’s not the end-all either. I’ve seen plenty of personality conflicts and poor bosses where recommendations would be poor, but should be taken in the broader context because I think we’ve all seen that happen. Thanks for the “hot potato” topic, Rebecca. I agree that not burning bridges is old school too.

I have two comments:
1) You appear to argue, soundly, that one should exit a job graciously, give proper notice, finish projects, etc., but that it’s ok to burn bridges. Likewise, you say folks don’t need references to get a “cool job,” but that you do need to know people who can help you get a foot in the door and vouch for you. I would say your advice amounts — soundly — to “Don’t burn your bridges and cultivate good references.” Don’t be ashamed — embrace your old fashioned inclinations!

2) I’m having an ongoing battle with my current employer regarding her obligation to provide proper toilet supplies in our office facilities. As you are in the toilet paper/trash bag biz, wouldn’t you agree that providing flushable wipes for one’s tootie is not only a fantastic morale builder, but essential to proper hygiene and disease prevention, thus cutting down and sick days and increasing productivity?

Please to discuss.

Don’t think of it in terms of references or recommendations. Think of it as your reputation. It will follow you and it will make the difference in getting hired, whether the company is cool or not.

Any hiring manager knows they are taking a risk with every hire and their desire to minimize the risk. Not looking at the reputation of a candidate that you don’t know personally and can’t get a good bead on through your network turns the hiring from a risk to a gamble. And I don’t gamble with my company’s money.

When you go to the grocery store you don’t think much of putting out .98 on a can of generic green beans. If you’re going to spend $50,000 on a new vehicle, however, you probably want to know who made it and how reliable their vehicles are, etc. Hiring an employee is the same way. I expect to get years of service from them and I want to know I can count on them, day in and day out.

Generation Y doesn’t need a reference if it doesn’t need a job. How else will you prove your achievements? Who else can vouch for your skills, attitudes, behaviors?

I find it funny to read the hot debate that takes place in the comments: references v. no reference.

There is truth certainly on both sides. It is the case that some “cool” positions will require references while others will not be necessary. In the case where you do not wish to have your previous employer be a reference. There is certainly a way around that. Networking being a powerful tool.

Therefore both sides are right, it is up to everyone to decide what will work for them.

I really appreciated Rebecca’s post thought, as it allows people to realize that there isn’t only one way to have a “cool” job. It is refreshing to have career advice that differs from the traditional school.

Rebecca,

Thanks for continuing the post and starting such a lively topic. I think its great that you put yourself out there, but I have to disagree with you. There a few things that feel better than telling that “idiot boss” what you really think on your way out the door. And I think the truth is if that boss is really an idiot, the market knows it and would discount any kind of reference they would give you anyway.

But I think the real reason you don’t burn that bridge is not because you may need a reference from that manager — what if your old company is a client of your new company and becomes one of your accounts? What if the old manager hires on at your new company’s best client? IMHO, the reason not to burn bridges is because of what happens AFTER you get the new job, not before.